[Music] hello I'm cat Finch and welcome to the latest episode of the service now UK and I executive Circle podcast series within our podcast we speak to some of the industry's most exciting innovators thought leaders and Senior Executives all with the aim of giving you our listeners the inspiration insights and Market intelligence you need to help drive your organization forward this week we're speaking to Gina Gill the chief strategy officer for the cabinet offices Central digital and data office welcome Gina thank you very much I'm delighted to be here um now in this role that you obviously been in for a few months you are focusing on the new government's digital strategy and delivering of transformation um I was really keen and interested in what you were saying about building the Str building the foundation sorry for this digital future for government um in your view what's critical to the foundations that you're building so I I think that relates to the reason that I moved to the center in the first place so there were two reasons that I moved uh the first was I couldn't see I couldn't see where we were going as Government digital and data so I couldn't see the vision um that brought um that that brings us all together right we're over 20,000 people working across many different government departments um and then if you add health and local Authority into that then that number gets much much much bigger um and and I couldn't get a sense of what we're collectively trying to do so I felt like we were building kind of some great Digital Services in isolation but actually not necessarily solving that endtoend user experience across different departments across different Services across different agencies so that was reason number one having that Clarity of of where we're going and then number two um was was things that we have called system reform I hate the name but um but it's it's things that slow down um or prevent digital delivery within department so you know things that if you speak if you spoke to 100 colleagues they they'll list the kind of same uh things that are that are frustrating um and and those are things that I think the center is best placed to to resolve and and has to resolve and it's things like like money and incentives so how we fund digital work um which isn't really um aligned to digital delivery and and isn't it doesn't help us to deliver in in agile ways it is much more aligned to kind of big infrastructure not technology infrastructure but big infrastructure projects and programs um and big waterfall programs so so so so that's that's an issue for for people um incentives I think is the other thing so I don't think we incentivize departments to work together um so how do we how might we resolve that and so been having some interesting conversations with the treasury about that and thinking about about things we might be able to do in that space and related to that is you we talk about efficiency a lot but again we don't we talk about efficiency within kind of a department or an agency's budget not across the system and lots of and and I think lots of uh the efficiency that we need to create is is across the system so you know think about Justice um the cost of recidivism is £18 billion pounds a year that doesn't sit in an individual Department's budget right that's the cost to UK PLC how do you get after that how do you create the incentives to get after that so that's money and incentives um the second uh the second area for me is capability and I don't mean capability within digital and data colleagues I think you know we've been we've made we've made quite a lot of really good inroads into that um but more broadly I think there's still a lack of understanding of what digital means um across the Civil Service and across senior leaders in the Civil Service and I think we still see it as a back office function we still see it as a c space and and we don't really see it as Frontline delivery and a lot of it is now Frontline delivery and so so there's um something about how do we change how do we help to help people to like better understand digital um and and how um how it can enable a different way of delivering Services um and then last but not least is is how we buy things and work with industry um we're we're still very and we've got lots of kind of different Frameworks we did gcloud and but we still predominantly work with with the same really big suppliers um we don't we haven't done as well as we would have wanted to I don't think in terms of working with um with smaller with like smmes with smaller um um suppliers um with people who who might have new and Innovative um technologies that might help to build better experiences um and I think there's a real opportunity in in that space as well and a real opportunity to think about how do we go from innovate like how do we go from kind of testing things um to then actually um kind of full on delivery without running you know many many procurement processes lengthy procurement processes um along the way definitely so it sounds like part of your strategy one of the initial stages is going to be a bit of an internal change management piece like you said that kind of cultural mindset shift to thinking about how digital can align a lot of these different U government departments I think that shared service the interoperability between all the pieces really needs to come together to overcome some of the Legacy technology and the the silos that exist is that going to be part of your strategy that you're trying to do so it would definitely be part of the of the strategy and I mean yeah what we're talking about is cultural change right and and cultural change across um uh an organization A system that has been in place for for a very long time so that's not fast and it's not easy um but I think we have to set out a really clear picture of where we're going we have to set out kind of what what the next kind of three to five years will hold and then we have to talk about those kind of foundational pieces um and and what we're going to do to address those over that period as well so with the new government encouraging the notion of doing more with less and using technology to improve efficiency there is a real need to not just build that longer term digital strategy um that is robust but remain agile and respond to the political the economical and technological changes that are inevitable and that are happening as we speak yeah look it's it's hard um it's it's hard and it's hard and system where um where we know that every five or so years we we'll have a um a potentially a new government in a different direction so I think we need to separate where are we going long term and set out a clear clear long-term vision and that and and that has to be something that is hard to argue with right and so I think it has to be grounded in service and public service um and I think it has to be grounded in the user experience that we want to create create um for members of the public and and for businesses and so you know that could be things like um that could be um things like you know we don't want people to have to share their data same data with us over and over again it could be things like um we want um interactions to be simpler we want interactions to be seamless we don't want people to need to understand which department they're interacting with or which you know service or Forum they need so so I think you can set up that picture of if this is what we want it to look and feel like in the future um and then work with um you know each government um to look at how you prioritize which Services um you focus on during that particular period so for this government for example it might be planning right so um aligned to um the mission for for growth so so I think it's yes set out the long term that's hard to argue argue with that kind of transcends um um political parties and elections and then use um kind of each new term to to focus on on the priorities of of the government at the time it's a really difficult balance isn't it between the people that you you're working with and how to make that shift and change in government to really what citizens expect you know they've got apps they all using Tik Tok we've you know they've all they are digital first digital Natives and they've got lots of ideas and they don't want to sit on a phone anymore they don't want to talk to a virtual agent anymore um sorry a call center agent anymore um so what in your view what technology do you think is needed to try and get that balance what are the Milestones you're going to sort of build toward so I I I'm actually trying not to think about technology um because I think that I I think technology changes so quickly that we're in danger of saying um we're in danger of setting out a strategy that says yeah we're going to use this particular technology to reach this goal I think we really need to focus on outcomes and I and I worry that you know in the past we kind of go through phases of of different Buzz buzzwords um and I when I first landed in government it was um RPA so you know robotic process automation I was I read a a strat as a meeting a few months ago where they were talking about robots and I genuinely thought they meant physical robots until I realized they meant they didn't mean physical robots at all we were talking about robotic automation um and um and and you know and as as you know over the past year or so AI is on is the word on on everyone's lips um and I think that if we get too caught up in the technology we ended up we end up um implementing technology for Technology's um sake potentially putting lipstick on a pig um and not actually solving the problems that we that we set out to solve like when j i bursted onto the scene I was at thej at the time and I would get people emailing me from like that I had never met before in the organization think I've got a great idea here I think we should do this from Ani perspective you know we can do like AI prison visits I don't I don't even understand what that means um so so so yeah so I think we have to really kind of make sure that people get excited about um the problem that they're solving and not about the technology I completely agree um I had a fantastic conversation with salian hick she's the global VP of automation Experian and she's a huge advocate focusing on the business outcomes first the challenges that you're trying and naturally AI might not always be the natural answer to the question there is a journey there's an evolution of what you're trying to achieve based on what those challenges are absolutely and speaking of challenges and the foundation you're trying to put in place do you see reskilling and upskilling and the general digital skills piece as a challenge or a bit of an opportunity uh with your with your team and your department I think it's an opportunity um and I think look the the excitement so so the one thing that EI has done is it it's opened the door to many conversations that that that we weren't having before um which is a is a good thing um and I think that um that helps us then to have conversations about about skills um and you when we we last spoke I talked about the fact that that doesn't mean that we need to turn everyone into a techie um far from it I think it's much more about having the skills to be able to operate in a digital age which really is an age of change right constant change um and so so so it's about being able to work with people with different skill sets it's about being able to like really focus on what is the problem that we're trying to solve and what is um the experience of of the user that's using the service um it's much more about um the ability to think laterally to solve problems um and the the desire to understand how other people are solving problems I think and and kind of trying to to bring some of that back into into government exactly there's a lot more just to skills it's more about the digital literacy how do you interpret the data how do you I mean I've seen job roles advertise for AI prompters so people who actually working out what what do I need to prompt AI to get the information out and actually that's that's a skill in itself and I think we have to not ignore the human intelligence that goes with the artificial intelligence and there is a skill to that there's a skill to being the human in the loop to make sure that you're you're using technology in the right way absolutely agree and and you know there's an interest say debate about actually do you um do we end up with human skills that are atrophying because because we're replacing them with technology right so so so do people lose the ability to bring that that human lens and and how do you keep the right balance in in that and I think I mean c cddo has been working on a a framework for where AI shouldn't shouldn't be used or or how to think about where to use AI particularly generative AI um and we had the same kind of linked um at uh the ministry of justice and and and it was in some cases it was specific to different business areas so um for example in court there an absolute Red Line in terms of of um technology making um judgments that's just not a line we're willing to cross um and therefore you so it's it's I guess relatively easy in in in that space to say this is where the line is is I think it's actually harder in other spaces to say this is where the the line is but those are the conversations we need to be having yeah I think it's inter you sort of touched there on a little bit of almost like a bit of a digital divide and not losing the sort of the human skills that we have if we rely solely on technology that actually you could see you know they talk about things like Ai and Technology being able to bring that digital divide together but there's also an opportunity or challenge there a bit of a fear that it could expand that divide because you know like we all use the calculator and I'm terrible at mental arithmetic we don't want to lose the abilities that we have just because we then become solely reliant on technology absolutely absolutely I think that's a real big risk yeah definitely I think another um area that's interesting with the sort of the human and the artificial intelligence is the sort of the bias around AI I don't know if you've seen the latest TV adverb with Dove oh I haven't actually it's it's it's really powerful because they sort of type in to the sort of chatbot you know give me a photo of a beautiful woman and so of course it generates what it thinks is a beautiful woman and then it you know you can put in the information give me an image of what is a dove beautiful woman and that's when you get back the images um and they're different sizes different colors and it's it suddenly becomes more representative and I think there is there is a fear there on what that bias is you know if we don't put in the right data especially for you I think with that customer first mentality and looking at your citizen experience you have to get that data right you don't want to put anything biased into your systems because you're then not going to be getting the right user experience out AB absolutely agree but I also think that there is there is so much data that sits across government that is it's subjective right because a um so again going back to MJ like case notes um and I say just MJ I mean in health doters case notes so that there's lots of that type of information in and data that sits in government and there's and and you need that information and and that information will likely have some level of bias in it because you as humans we all have a level of bias so it's about how do you how do you make sure that you're not amplifying that bias and I think that's I think that's hard and I think we only find that by by experimenting safely um but experimenting to see what level of kind of accuracy um we get when we test AI in different in different scenarios and and then we have to make decisions on whether that level of accuracy is is good enough um and and whether it's good enough for public service particularly definitely I think that's where AI has a very positive force is it's creating this curiosity there's such curiosity about what we can do with technology and I think that's possibly the biggest opportunity that that it has given a lot of a lot of us at the moment yeah the other thing that I um I went to speak to some policy people in my old job and and they said come and come and speak to us do you know about AI I like okay come and speak to about AI but I also speak about some other things um and and they asked the question of how do you how do you think um what impacts do you think this will have on on the way that we work um and for me it was an opportunity to say actually I think that you know we should be set side by side um building this technology I mean we should be doing that anyway with with technology but particularly with um with Gen where you are testing and retesting and kind of fine-tuning um technology I think it brings operational colleagues policy colleagues digital colleagues closer together um and I think that that can only be a good thing definitely and do you think it's made you we're talking about sort Legacy technology and sort of uh government techn government departments have been around for a long time do you think it's enabled sort of the younger generation to look at your role to look at what you're doing and actually see it as quite more exciting than perhaps they used to and you're sort of seeing that sort of a sort of interest in these new digital skills and joining your Workforce that's an interesting question I don't know you know I I think that what do I think I think that when people look at government they still have an image of of what that's like and or a civil service and they still have an image of what that's like and so I think it's hard for people to kind of connect to that um image and and see themselves in those roles um so I I think we're um the thing that is more likely to influence people is where we are out talking to people and they can see we're normal human beings and actually and and and we're grappling with some quite interesting problems that that for me that for me is more powerful than any kind of individual technology and getting people excited about these types of roles yeah definitely well you a perfect face for for it I mean you you talk so eloquently and yeah it's quite inspiring to to hear about your vision so thank you so much Gina for joining us on the podcast again again because obviously we have spoken to in the past um and hopefully speak to you again soon thank you thank you for listening to the service now UK I executive Circle podcast if you've enjoyed this or any of the other episodes of this podcast series please do take a moment to rate or review us on your podcast platform of choice we'd love your feedback finally I'm Kat Finch the host of the service now uk&i executive Circle podcast thank you again for listening and speak with you again soon