good morning everybody Welcome to our bi-weekly call for the Digital Services Forum today I have a bunch of random topics I'm going to go through kind of a a streaming of thoughts if you will on on what I've seen on product management lately and try to get the group's temperature on a lot of these things so we can see where to where to double click on more in upcoming meetings at the end I want also want to bring up another topic on a foundational data so that we can talk more about foundational data which is really relevant to the digital product conversation as well so before we dive in if there are anybody uh any people that are on for the first time today just go ahead and put your name and where you're from in the comments so that we can welcome you to the group and just so everybody knows we use that comment section A lot so if you have anything coming up today especially as I go through different material that's you know kind of top of mind that we're working on right now if you have any comments on it we we go back and check that so that we make sure that we're getting the group what they need in order to move forward in certain areas so go ahead and put your name in there and what I'll do is I'll give you a link we'll give you a link to the Forum resources so that you can get all the information that uh becomes to available to you as a member and some of those will be the presentations you'll see access to an instance as well as um information on past meetings I'll flash that up at the end so we have more so today's topic I want to go through the the trends we've seen that what people are doing around moving from traditional project management and more into product man management we want to talk about the role a little bit and and how we see that shaping in certain areas and then we'll look at some trending items that have been conversations around the same project to product again and and those Trends a lot around portfolios that we'll talk about there and then like I said at the end we'll bring up and I've heard this Foundation data from a couple people now so we have more comments on that we can shape a meeting for for one of our upcoming sessions and specifically talk about foundational data just struggling a little bit with how to put that together and what specific things in foundational data that people are struggling with so I'll start this out with a digital product description and a lot of people get hung up on this so this is one that we we want to bring up so when you're packaging a product right it could be a service a physical item or a digital item like an application or a series of applications and we'll speak to that use case today and and you have a specific consumer for this product right so it's espe especially in a digital form and that means that that product has software for at least part of it right and and software is required that the the digital in front of the product okay and then there's a life cycle involved in this as a product um and you can see that when we talk about project or product the life cycle is a big part of that right that the product has a life cycle a project has a definitive beginning and an end but it doesn't really take that life cycle into perspective so that's one of the big differences and then there's a formal offer and it says of the outcome to be provided in exchange for an explicit price and then there's a little note down here and I I think this is um Dan Warfield uh has been working on this definition a little more to refine it and um don't get hung up on the price right there's um the price is different than cost so there is it does it could be zero right A lot of times if we're talking about digital products some of them that we'll talk about today there's not always a price on it we're not always charging for it so that that's in there for a reason but it it doesn't explicitly need to say hey if we're not charging for it it's not a product so that definition is one that um we we're using in here I know different people have different definitions of digital products depending on where you're looking but this is one that we follow mostly at service now so there's um a couple papers and I'm going to give you links to those papers on digital products and why people are shifting there's a couple really good books on the shift from Project to products there's a paper in the open group and that'll be in the comment section of this and um what I did here is I asked chat chpt because a lot of people today are going to this method to figure out what's going on in general so get a really a non-biased look something that pulls together a lot of sources so the big thing on products is the agility right and that's a lot of times when you think about moving to products instead of projects you're thinking more of agile and um it doesn't have to be an Agile development method but usually those two go hand inand when you move over to a project so you're continually looking at how can I improve this this this product that we have and that's a lot of people are shifting to that because it does get them into this agile mode another thing I've been seeing is that it makes sure that all the technology that gets purchased gets incorporated into something so it gets incorporated into a product that we're delivering it's big on the customer focus so really experience and measuring the customers and how they're consuming that product whether it's internal and ex or external the Strategic is a big part the Strategic alignment and this we'll get into this a little bit more later where we talk about portfolios of projects of products rather so how are we lining those products up into buckets so that we can align them to help with strategic goals and initiatives there's a lot of good collaboration and Innovation that's another big part of it so when you're working on products it really promotes that cross functional teamwork you're bringing people in and out to help you develop and release and advertise you're really making a concerted effort to get the product out there and the work with people to make sure that it it gets the most use in your organization and and then growth risk mitigation and you'll see this in all the papers whether it's the open group paper on the move from from Project to product or the books there's a a lot of these Concepts will come in for those different areas and I'm going to show you a couple of the examples that we've been seeing and how these are starting to shape in certain areas and coming in in little pockets so this is a a map that we've presented in the past that kind of lays out everything service now does on on one page and it's really nice used because we can see the groupings there's a big customer focus part there's our technology parts that service now employees so we have all the different Pieces Just Gonna we have all the different pieces um on here and what we've been having a lot of conversations about is how do we start doing product management on the service now platform so I thought this might for people still not getting the product concept I I was thinking that this might help a little bit because it's not just product management where somebody's managing it service management it it may be but it's also something it could be something very different so in this organization what we talked about is moving to more of a product management philosophy using the service now so one of the things we did is we said if we take certain areas we take all of these things the engagement layer and then all the core pieces of the service now platform and let's assign a product manager to that so what that product manager does is if you think about the consumers of the platform these are tenants on the platform so it service management consumes the service now platform so if that's one product manager another product manager might be the IT service management team that's now saying I'm using the service now platform to deliver my it service management product you might have another group here where we say the it asset management team is also the one that's bringing in the iton pieces to collect the information on the assets so that's another thing that you can kind of wrap together if it works for your organization and bundle that together as a product okay application portfolio management maybe that one's managed independently and we talked with this customer that I I masked out here we actually talked about this explicitly do we need a product manager for that or do we kind of roll that all together on one big it shared service product right so th those are the conversations that we're having SPM is its own product but now this was a customer that was in the public sector so what they did is they had the public sector part of service now but they also have customer service management that's bundled with that so that is managed as its own bucket for the the customer service part and then app engine piece is separate and then we have field service management that that's separate so we talk about now is how do we put people in charge of all these sections because a lot of times what happens is the service now platform owner becomes the DEA facto you know product owner for all these things and the field service team might say hey we put that on service now so all we have to do is use it now we don't have to take care of it we don't have to you know ask for new features like the service now this person that runs the platform now just took over all the responsibilities for those things so what we do is by talking about this in a different way we we go ahead and we can say let's make sure that we have all of these products represented so that now we can have sort of a matrix organization that is delivering these things for the organization and so all of these products could be represented by these different people that come in and that role is basically to make sure that you do c you have certain responsibilities as the owner of the constituent Services product right so the the service now platform product manager right they're not serving end users they're not they don't they're not serving the people that are using your service desk they're not serving the people that are doing application management they're actually serving the product managers right the tenants that are the product managers that are using their platform so that person is getting the service that they're providing is being consumed by these other uh eight product managers okay so that's a big shift for a lot of people because a lot of times that platform owner in service now they have to worry about all the end users of all these products now if you click on if you look at one of these product managers uh their responsibility if you click on this right is to make sure that you own and manage all the products that you're responsible for so it's either a product or the portfolio and you maintain the life cycle so for as long as we have the field service product that we're using U you make sure that you're refreshing that you make sure the road map's fresh you make sure that people know new features are coming you look for new people in your organization to use that field service product as a product manager you're your responsible for the proliferation of it uh you're responsible for the future of it and you're responsible for telling that platform on Ron service now what you need the pieces that you need so this spreading out of the responsibilities is a big trend on the service now platform as we look as we look to move forward with expanding it more from a a ticketing tool to an Enterprise platform right this is the type of thing that we need just like an ER P you wouldn't say that the person that owns the sap platform is also responsible for HR and supply chain and finance right it's the same way on the service now platform there's that platform on and then all those people that ride on the platform to use its capabilities right so that's one example we've been talking a lot about joh you've got a question in the chat from Allan it says we have a group that has organized their work in groups into user experiences and they're saying that the user experiences are their products is that legitimate is it good or problematic yeah I I I think that's great the focus on the user experience is is a big part of it and um definitely moving in the right direction because a lot of times like I said that like on service now that all lands down here on the platform owner so if there's a user experi experience that is not being delivered because the platform is Laing right they they need to push it back that way so I don't know if if if that's the case there Allan in your organization if that's how it's working to where there's this relationship between these two people for the user experience because that platform owner is the one that's responsible for the uh the channels right what I'm asking about is more about the granularity in in the um this is um Kaiser Permanente um Healthcare and so it was they organized it in terms of manag my appointments manag my managed my prescriptions uh managed my health record um and each of those was called a user experience and that's how they organized the squads and and the services that get developed but there wasn't a focus on a particular product or software product within um each one there and so that's so that's why where I was wondering is that is that okay for them to say oh our our user experiences are our products I was afraid that that was a little bit the medium is the message kind of smoking mirrors yeah it it it could be and um if the ex if it's I mean that's part of it is the um the experience but another big big part of it right is the strategy the road map where are you going with it so as long as that group is focused on the ongoing Improvement of the experience which is a big part of the product that's definitely a big chunk of it Al also I add that list like the investment and there's a pragmatic middle somewhere where any particular scheme if you take it to its extreme you're going to have too many independent products and too many product managers and it's going to be unwieldy and they're not going to have enough real force and power it's like swinging the pendulum one way you swing it the other way and you've got too few product managers and they're over too big a territory and they're they're not really involved in the vision and improving of their product the way they should be there's a right somewhere in the middle and I think every orc kind of finds that right spot after a lot of fumbling around I think we're immature this as an industry um so like it it's do what works and the user part is definitely a huge part of products but there's also a whole bunch of uh products that I think are totally valid products that don't have direct end user facing um that they're more um uh how would you say uh friction eliminators that sort of thing um on the platform like is is like a portal a product versus a specific instance of a portal that's being used for a specific purpose I'd argue like the generic capability of doing portals isn't that's just a platform capability specific groupings of things like I've had a Supply Chain management portal with a Supply Chain management workflow and some document management and stuff like that I'd say all those Parts together equal one port one product for organizations that I've worked with your mileage is going to vary right and we've we've debated here too like do you take these and roll that up into one like you know it is this like one big it shared service product right whatever you're naming it right you and the level you want to track it at um you can kind of adjust this granularity so even even certain times we brought the cmdb up into the top level like somebody is in charge of maintaining cmdb data and getting more consumers of that data which which is kind of strange because usually the C CMD is a supporting function but if you actually make it to where there's a product manager and they're saying we're gonna make sure that security is using it and it service Management's using it and um right then then it becomes more you can elevate it by making it a product well well and one of the key things for that and I'm a big fan of that by the way is um the service offerings and so just because we're product focused doesn't mean Services don't aren still a huge part of this and if you're looking at who's the the service provider and who's the service consumers and what are those defined service offerings cmdb fits that very clearly and there's a lot of advantages of understanding that Incident Management and security and asset management and all the rest of those things are all service consumers of the cmdb service and the product that that delivers that so I love that model personally even though it is more of a backend thing yeah that's another area we're struggling to get our feet on the ground of the distinction and responsibilities between product and service the best thing that I found so far was um the statement from Dan Warfield of and he may have gotten it from someplace else of customers receive value from a product delivered by a service um which which seems to work and map very well but um but we need more guidance in terms of what's a product manager versus a service manager um where do they do similar things um connected things different things um what are the comparative respons posibilities I didn't mean John I didn't mean to take you off of your Spiel um um Charles thanks for for taking the question but if you want to continue your your flow um go for it and then we can address questions later sure yeah this is a this is another one I I'll put up there um but really good dialogue Alan you didn't take me off it at all this is what I would hoping uh was I was hoping we get today so this is a lot of what we're with the digital product um Mark had some early views of you know D 5.0 the csdm and you can see the products coming in and starting to to group different things together right so a product might be hey this is the service that we're delivering on the side right but this is the applications that we're using for out of the Enterprise Port these are the applications we're using these are the the products that we're using on the the technical product side right or the technical service side the group of things that we're using so you could package products together whether it's an application that's being delivered or a technical service offering right you could package those together using that product construct right so you're building you're building a a larger product like an automobile right and then it has all of the like your seat controls and your your temperature controls those are all different software pieces together so the those independent products are coming together to create the offering of the automobile right and it's the same way here in your organization that you're using the Linux team to give you a Linux server and you're using the MySQL team to give you a MySQL server and then you have this product that you bought or built um right so that's that's the packaging we're looking to get together to give that product manager so that they can go ahead and and deliver their offering so I'll give you an example example of this that I just had with a I work with State customers a lot and they wanted to package a a constituent basically a constituent service where other agencies can come in uh like let's say Public Safety comes in and says I want to be able to offer a way to pay a citation online because the only way they do it today is they they mail it in or or do something like that so they want to get it off of the method it's on and digitize it so this product manager might be thinking like how can I make a package that I offer to all of my agencies so that that do things like pay citation or apply for a building permit so that they can come in and and get that package that's more ready for them instead of them coming to it and you saying here's an IP address and here's your 3 VMS and here's they want to come to it and just say I want I I need a new constituent service so they might say okay as the package as the product manager I need these three things out of service now's package but to your point before uh for the user experience I also need things that aren't serviced now right I need to get I need to use ezri this is a big GIS software I use I need a payment Gateway that service now doesn't do I I need a digital signature so what they can do is they could say our package is this part from service now and this part from other vendors or these parts rather and they make these together and this is the state's product right the state's product that they can give to agencies is this combination of these vendor provided software packages but they offer unique value as that state it agency because they pre package these things for them right so that we don't have to go through that whole design every time and then that models reusable for things like you know citations or permits or marriage licenses right or or hunting licenses or DMV payments and so what they could do is that that product manager now is is responsible for making sure a lot of people use this package and and then say what do I need to add on next is it do I need to add add on docy sign next or do I need to add on another one of these things that service now has in the package that I'm using so that product manager decides when things come in and this is really where they have an advantage over a vendor like like us right service now comes in and says we have all these things well you know I need to still put that together and make it work for for my state so so basically what they have here is they they're able to develop their own package and who cares what technology it's underneath right in this case I'm giving you the service now example because you're all service now people right but they can offer this in their own portal with that prepackaged thing and they can get get them to Value much quicker than like I said having that conversation about IP addresses and SQL servers and and things like that a lot of times you know the it conversation is so I'm going to do is I want to launch a little hole here on um on digital products and um go ahead and get that filled out by you guys while we go through the the next couple pieces so that's another part of the trend where we're seeing specific digital products come up and different packaging come up uh that's a lot of the way we're talking about it now and we assign a person to making sure as many of these can use as possible and what do I need to do what features do I need to make more people use this internal product right right so some of the trends we've been seeing is um we're starting to look at how people make the move and what we mean by that is there's different ways that we see people starting out with products a lot of what I see because people start doing this on service now um a lot of what I see is we want to we want to Pilot We want to go in that direction that we're going to say hey can we get one running like this and then and then maybe move to more of these product groups right these product constructs where where people are all responsible for it uh this one's pretty common like if we see this a lot of Skunk Works projects this bootstrapping is when they just they see the limitations of the organization as being um a hindrance right to meeting the market demands so what they do is they spin out this group they push this group aside and they say you can work in the confines of your own product group so we're going to give you a complete autonomy in that product group to develop something quicker so that you can make sure that you know you're more able to meet this big challenge that we have in the market U so that one is like a lot of lot of times you'll you hear hear like Skunk Works and things like that so they just push those people to the side and piloting is when you have it you have it in mind that you want to see does do digital products really work for us is you know let's do one let's do two let's do a couple so let's put a couple people in that mode of working while everybody else stays in the traditional way of working and that piloting is usually going to be if successful pilot a lot of times you'll move to this where a couple of the organizations I know on the phone today that are represented the Enterprise has made a decision and said look we're just G to go we're g to move to product management we're doing this software for a long time and this is the way all the other like service now right we package everything at products so all these big companies they use that product construct and we're going to do that now so Charles talked about Boeing a few weeks ago so these big shifts I I just want to get a temperature on other people too so we're going to take another survey here and um I'll post these survey results inside of the inside of the PowerPoint when I put the PowerPoint out on our share um but this will be looks like we have a mostly people doing product management in some places it seems like that the big goal now okay so thinking about these scenarios on the next one we want to take a quick look at how people are seeing the shift happening the ones that are either have done the shift or the people that are um have done the shift or in the process of Shifting the digital products so it looks like some people so it says a lot of people aren't doing it in this group right now so that's good to know couple Pilots going on um no bootstrapping so nobody really broke out a group there's a little bit of bootstrapping in there excellent right so we can look at how people are getting there and a lot of this will be our a focus of some of the research that we're doing and and then the enablement right for for each of these different scenarios okay all right now as we go so that's one of the things in trending right is that people are using all three of these ways to get there anything in the comments that you put if there's a different way um this is one of the the papers that we're writing right now with Dan and Mark where we're we're looking at some of the different perspectives and ways people are getting to digital products so another thing that Mark's been doing a lot of work on and I know he presented this uh but this is a work in progress is we're looking at how different digital products in different groups have different attributes right so one of the a group of digital products is on that are using being used by our customers there's others this is the the tool chain that we use to actually build new digital products or configure them because a lot of people say oh we don't do development we use off-the-shelf products as much as possible well if you bring that off-the-shelf product in you still have to configure it for your organization uh so this is more of that tool chain whether you're you're writing a bunch of code to deliver digital products or your your manufacturing making a physical product so that's another type of digital products with a specific set of attributes the employee products uh things like onboarding and um you know facilities and all those different things would fall into those products that employees consume that would be more of an internal provided thing and then there's a lot of the things that we talked about in service now are foundational products so what are our shared Technical Services that we put out there so that everybody doesn't have to be a you know a Windows administrator to run their environments right we we kind of standardize some of those technical pieces so people don't have to wonder about that underlying piece so if there's any comments on this this is a lot of what's shaking out is how do we how do we start to form and give a type to different product portfolios so that we can group them together and treat them a little bit differently because they're they're being consumed by by these um these different groups of consumers hey joh again where does where do the digital product portfolios appear here in csdm are they up in design in csdm there's um there's they're on the um Business Service side is where you'll see some of the portfolios but if I'm going to show you something a little bit different there alen I don't have you seen DPM in recent releases we have an Enterprise portfolio piece in there haven't seen that okay so I'm going to show you that in a minute here because I want to give you an idea of a of a couple different constructs on uh on how to group these and we're going to look at a use case from um from UCI they gave me the permission to use theirs so so so one quick part about products in csdm there's a bunch of questions in the chat on it and and I'll try and kind of summarize at least my take on on the answer csdm 4 came out while digital product management was in early phases in evolving so there isn't a clean match in CSD M4 there's sort of stubs that there's Concepts that are bleeding their way in um you still have business services app Services Technical Services those are kind of your foundational elements in csdm that's not really changing product I suspect will fit somewhere in between those services and the portfolios which is where I think yeah what what John's showing on the screen there it's not meant to replace those earlier Concepts it's almost more to bundle them so so this isn't a one Way's right or wrong it's a multiple thought streams are going on at the same time and they're evolving and they don't always um line up cleanly and you do what's pragmatic to manage your business you I'll show you kind of what's there now in in DPM that's been shaken out um quite a bit so we'll look at this um this UCI use case at the end I'm going to jump over to a demo for that to show you some new things so one of the things that people are structuring portfolios this is another um is evaluate so how do we put all of these products like I showed you all those service Now Products there was nine of them like how do put all those on an equal playing field and and make a decision on who's going to get funding or where are we going to divest in right because we that product isn't as doing as well right they told me they'd have 400 people using that an organization and we only got 20 people using it we're six months in right so there's these these evaluations that's a good reason to group products together into these packages these portfolios there's um risk is a big part of that too right we want to make sure we're investing to mitigate the risks technology rationalization a lot of people start there is what what are all those technical Parts what are they part of delivering so they're kind of mapping it to the products they're offering and I want to talk to you about this use case too because we um we aren't we don't have ways to group like digital products yet in service now we have ways to group applications we have ways to group application services and then we have ways to group digital uh or business services rather so what I'm going to do is I'm going to show you that how we changed a little bit in DPM and I'm going to use this UCI use case if anybody's heard of the time model before what that is is a way of grouping a bunch of applications together and then doing assessments on them so what uci's use case is they want to take these buckets of applications they own and they want to do a qualitative assessment on all of those applications right and later they're going to do a quantitative assessment like what do we know about those applications but first what they want to do is a qualitative assessment so they're using this this time scoring which is from Gartner um they're using a time scoring method and for each application they're saying what is the business fitness the cost Fitness and the technology Fitness so these surveys will go out to each of the application owners and then based on the surveys they'll derive a score and then over time they want to make sure they're trending the scores on all of these and then they want to provide reporting on it so that they could manage to those applications but what they also want to do is they want to be able to roll up the applications um and have a score on the business service or services that those applications provide okay so this is where I'm going to jump over and we'll take a look at DPM and something new in DPM that people might not know about today but you can see the kind of direction we're going to support these these different scenarios because what they're doing is they're they're looking they're kind of doing product management here because they are grouping it into a business service um and I I'll show you how that works inside of inside of the product okay so for those of you on the call for the first time I'll give you access to this instance so if you want to come into this instance as a um as an admin you can just send me a note and I know a lot of you have logins already so what I'm going to show you here you'll be able to go ahead and go where I'm going you can follow me along in the video afterwards um but if you go into workspaces right there's there's digital digital portfolio management and in digital portfolio Management in the past what you had the ability to do is that you had the ability to create a portfolio in the business service domain right so that that is going to be any of the portfolios like if you click on ours you will be able to um see that there's these service portfolios so if I go to Enterprise technology right it'll bring us into a group of business services and what we did in recent releases is we offer different types of portfolios so now what you can do is you can group business applications um that's in that top right domain you can group those and you can also group application services and create portfolios of those so there's still not a product portfolio right but there are these different groups of portfolios that we have so if I look at an application portfolio getting back to uci's use case this application portfolio is what we think will fit the build the best uh so the way that these application portfolios work is that you have a taxonomy like human resources and you can say you know multi-level taxonomy here so these are taxonomy nodes and then temp tracker and workday these are actually the business applications okay now what what we do because of the csdm underneath workday we're going to give you the application services and so what you do when you create your taxonomy structure what you do is you tell us what is the taxonomy and then what applications go in it and then by means of csdm we're going to give you these these application Services underneath that are running workday now for yes is this pulling from APM because that's where we're defining it yeah this is pulling from APM uh the business application workday right but it's pulling from um the structure that you created in DPM for the taxonomy okay thank you you're welcome okay so what it does for workday now right is I have a it's giving me quantitative measures so it's giving me me my availability the number of in inid that I have not on my business application because you don't want to put incidents on a business application but it's using csdm to roll up our incidents from our underlying application Services now with UCI the what we're doing is we're going in um we want to we don't want these metrics right now we don't want incidents we don't want changes we want to put three new metrics in there from Gartner so what we can do is we can have three new metrics that we create that roll up the scores from those surveys similar to like we would do in a you in a satisfaction survey and we can say for workday here is our cost Fitness here's our business fitness and here's our technical Fitness right so we're creating these lines because this portfolio structure uh gives us that you know the the reporting that we need to see trends of that those Fitness scores and then what it does because it's in the portfolio it will roll those Fitness scores up to the human resource information system level so now we'll have the aggregate scores of those surveys that we did down here at this level okay so it's a way we're grouping applications uh but we're getting the rollups on those those functional groups so you resource information systems that might be like a a portfolio manager right for all the products that HR uses so we're using this as a proxy for product reporting right but it's it's using it based on the applications groupings so that's that's a little bit of of information on how we can um roll it up to that level now what they're doing at UCI is these groupings are actually their a proxy for their business services so we could actually do another survey at this level if we want to do a fitness and then roll that up to higher level categories so we're talking about where do we do the surveys how do we bring that information in and then how do we make sure that the people that are responsible for the applications um all the way up to this level could come up and see the results of that quantitative analysis of all of the underlying applications um so that you know they know where to invest and and not invest so that will be one of the metrics for determining the investment strategy going forward so for those of you that haven't seen it before um if you do go to DPM you will get those three different types of portfolios now so I'll just give you a quick look at this and switch back and uh I think we're g to have a whole set on this coming up but if you go to Enterprise portfolios you'll see here that it's going to let you um it it'll let you create either an application uh Enterprise business application portfolio or application service portfolio so I have two examples in this environment for those of you that want to come in and check them out and then when you get a new one It'll ask you how do you want to group the technology together right so if I say new uh you'll be able to say um you know what type of things are we yeah are we grouping application services or are we grouping business applications so they give you different rollups depending on what you're grouping together okay there's other things we've done um maybe next time we can cover like how do you add new metrics on on your portfolios of business applications or services but that gives you some idea of how we can apply the needs for reporting or on you know to do portfolio evaluations how we could apply that today using what we have okay so it looks like the um a large part of our group hasn't really started on digital products yet and um it's we have about 20% about yeah 20% have started the Enterprise shift which is really nice to digital service or digital products S D I have a question yeah so with the um digital digital product portfolio management it is dependent on the service portfolio management correct it's on the service not necessarily you could you could come in and Group business applications um Standalone it's just that you wouldn't get that the application Services underneath unless you had some of the services defined so but you could just have the business app table filled out and use that construct you just wouldn't get that drilled down I showed you I think so the one of the confusions um some of my clients I've had is understanding DPM and then I guess the Legacy or the existing SPM service Portfolio Service portfolio management not strategic portfolio management because you could kind of create your taxonomies and get a lot of these metrics like availability major incidents and all that at the service portfolio management level as well so it's just tring to understand at least from what I understood is SPM and DPM were somewhat related but DPM is kind of giving you this visual because SPM does not have that visual yeah we got rid of I'm off based on that SPM got collapsed into DPM okay that's what I thought yeah yep so this is the SPM taxonomy that we're using um and that's where the portfolios are in that that that question was asked earlier this is how you would group those Business Services or or Technical Services together uh so it's different the different groupings for different domains in the csdm that's it was just confusing for yeah it was confusing for clients because they're like we see service portfolio management and we see digital portfolio management like which one should we I guess configure and I was obiously obviously I told them to do a DPM because it's the a path forward thank you for clarifying appreciate that wait wait John this is Mitch we're still using service Builder to create um services and service offerings but DPM to manage those Services right so and will eventually that functionality be rolled into DPM well yeah it is today like if you go to um this business still service Builder and you know that functionality because this service Builder is built into these so if you're on a business service and you you own it uh you can edit this in service Builder so service Builder is the configuration and DPM is the visualization okay so service Builder is sits on top of DPM it's not necessarily yeah okay all right that's fair thanks well and also just because we're releasing new apps that that take a different lens on similar data don't like if you're not doing digital product management and that's working for you then don't go this direction like I think there's a lot of pressure sometimes to kind of keep up on everything and the industry is definitely heading towards product management but use the tools that are appropriate for managing how your org manages portfolios and and how they do that if you're still doing apps and services great that's working for you well I'm gonna launch the last poll here because we just want to see where we need to go in terms of getting more DPM information out um I'm talking to a lot of people who haven't seen DPM or did know about Enterprise portfolios I just want to validate that with the group if that's uh if that's the case joh U this is by the way so it's a good session to understand the DPM but uh we have a client who is undergoing U the rarg and you know they're centralizing most of their services and they are also uh consolidating their vendors right you know so in in scenarios like this especially that's the nature of the client the current work what's happening um they don't have an Enterprise architecture team clearly defined and the services are really fragmented like you know you have multiple teams doing the same thing uh what is the level of mindset change you know so I don't even know that they are okay to deal with uh deal the deal with the concept of digital product management right you know like as you said so so what is the best way to formulate in use case here and uh how can we just show the value of this you know and who would be the actual stakeholders who can you know uh understand this and then put this into implementation right you know from your experience so the what I've seen is the Enterprise Architects are really taking the lead on this right to try to get something in place that's why I brought this this UCI example is a really good one because they're they're trying to get there right they're trying to say how do we report on these groups of Technologies and creating those constructs like determining you know how much money people get for certain things based on its Fitness right do we need to elevate so people like this is a good example of they're not actually explicitly saying we're doing digital product management but they're moving in that direction right just like the user experience that Allan mentioned earlier because you're focused on that user experience and you're doing different things and different planning to elevate the experience you're you're kind of you're starting to move in that direction of digital product management so you don't explicitly have to come out and say we're shifting we're changing today right but these little pockets of things as long as you know what digital product entails and you start doing little pieces of it maybe the road map maybe the experience Focus right I I think that that moves push you in the right direction so okay okay so uh if I mean I worked on APM and I've also implemented SPM two two two entities together APM typically we focused on how a Enterprise architecture team making decisions on their it Investments you know that's a typical U scenario and I could see ASM SPM is like more of how are we performing how our services has been delivered in terms of you know how can I rank your services most from a service mindset so can I consider DPM as a combination of these two together um and says that you know his service along with the back and Tech together you know forms this product or is there something that I'm missing here no I think that's a good way to look at it is we want to roll up uh data on on them DPM will give you roll up data so it rolls a bunch of metrics up and it'll have that quantitative data like how many incidents do I have or how many unplanned changes or how many outages but you can also roll up that qualitative data using the assessments piece okay and the target for DPM is very specific they call them solution owners so that could be a person that owns a group of applications a person that owns a digital product that made up by a bunch of different technology or a person that owns um a group of services right so those are that's who this is made for is those solution owners that are responsible for the overall delivery of some value to a consumer makes sense so in this DPM the the workspace that you just shown John you know in APM we we would be showing the risk right you know the risk is one of the thing we would show the technical risk uh if you don't upgrade or like you know change the technology right you know so in DPM do we also get that kind of context like integrate with uh uh the software Asset Management to get the life cycle information or I see the application Services which attribute to service mapping or manual kind of stuff but that moves more where this one's a solution owner that moves more into like an EA responsibility so that APM is more for EAS DPM is more for the solution owners so spefic Target so is DPM last question sorry about that uh is DPM is really embedded into the csdm and it it comes as part of platform capability or any additional licensing it comes as part of itsm or SPM so as long as you have one of those DPM stretches across those products no additional licensing no additional licensing okay it's I would say it's more of like a csdm extending data model got it yeah thank you tic cour all right so I know today was kind of scattered I wanted to just go through a lot of top of Mind things and um see if I got anybody moving or thinking differently about digital products um we're gonna do certainly do more on that on sessions to come the other thing I just want to see you can either come off mute um or go ahead and um drop it in the chat on foundational data this is a lot of people they're not getting stuck on creating the csdm models or creating the doing that modeling piece but they're getting stuck on having clean foundational data whether that's the teams or the organizations or the Departments or the business units so if you can just put in chat I didn't have a survey for this but um just drop data in there are you struggling with this today and um I I know at least four organizations that have commented that they are struggling with the right foundational data to feel comfortable moving forward I know if anybody wants to talk about it or like I said just drop that in chat hey John hey so all of our customers yes to the point that as they start their csdm Journey yeah we will not engage unless you address it and I know that's a huge thing as a service now partner but it doesn't make any sense to get into crazy if you're already in it yeah so it's part of our pre-sales so we once we find out we look at their foundational data if it's not in order we ask them to take the opportunity to work with us to get it in order and if they're not willing to do that then we have to pass on the opportunity that's where I am do you have processes for helping them get there or assessments to sir you know what you know the happy CF has a process for everything yes maybe you can share that Ed that that' be a good session because I've been struggling with how do I help people with this and I don't really have a lot of good answers myself so if somebody has good answers okay and you can see I'm back everybody yeah let's let's get you teed up uh we'd also really uh Ben from that as well uh we've tried to look at a lot of documentation but um yeah I did put a comment in chat it's Tyson here from the University of West Australia by the way um but yeah our CM Tob was led to run wild for a little bit there uh and it wasn't until um myself and my wingman Scott will Wilcox who's also in this meeting um they've really been starting to dive into it now over the last eight months um we've certainly made improvements um but it would have been fantastic if we could actually have like you know a good guide or process or recommend on the the best way to get this sorted okay good deal I know we're over but I I just have this last slide in here we are the next two sessions one will be on process Mining and we're working with more and more with product management so on process mining we'll have Dan Grady talking about that if anybody is doing process mining we'd love to have you speak with Dan so co-ee Dan will do part or Dan's team and then the same on DPM if anybody's doing DPM and would want to show the group kind of what they're doing so they know hey this is what service now demos and this is how it really looks right when we're using it that's that's what we try to give here so if anybody can help me out on either one of these two that'd be greatly appreciated um I'd be interested in having a a discussion about DPM and sharing where we are because we're doing some offline modeling and trying to understand how we manage to model our organization and and portfolios across it so definitely interested in having Round Table discussion there with yeah we've literally installed DPM in the training environment are playing with it at the moment so getting other perspectives really useful yeah we'll Reach Out Damian thanks for that all right thank you everybody sorry to take you two minutes over but we'll talk to you in a few weeks and John how do we contact you um you could get me on let me drop just drop my email in there I think that's the easiest for now okay