Please welcome to the stage ServiceNow's Chief Strategy and Corporate Affairs Officer, Nick Tzitzon. (upbeat electronic music) Don't you love it when they introduce the one person you're not actually here to see? Good morning. Welcome to Knowledge day three. Wow, this is a full room, which is a total tribute to our two special guests today. But before we get to that, I wanna start on a couple of notes. First of all, our new CMO, Colin Fleming, said that it might be nice for me to take a moment. I seldom feel comfortable ever asking you to applaud for ServiceNow. But the teams behind an event like Knowledge, whether you're talking about our partners who invest a lot of resources and time, our product and engineers who build all the demos you see, our field organization who works really hard to get you here. And then there's our marketing organization and our global events team led by Debbie Brewer. And these people literally break themselves trying to get to a point where you have an amazing experience. So I wondered if you wouldn't mind just taking a moment and sending a little bit of love to the team behind Knowledge 2024. (audience applauds) Second, I'll give you just a short recap. So on day one, you heard from our Chairman and CEO, Bill McDermott. And Bill brought his usual firepower to this stage. He told you about ServiceNow's strategy to be the AI platform for business transformation. We showed you some great demonstrations and told you some great customer stories. It was a great kickoff. In the morning yesterday, we heard from our President and COO, CJ Desai, who really opened our eyes to the power of the ServiceNow platform. And together with some amazing guests from Microsoft and Nvidia and some great customer testimonials, kept the momentum going. Yesterday afternoon, we had a conversation hosted by Jackie and Gina from ServiceNow with Viola Davis. And if you were there, I'm told no one left with a dry eye. It was a truly emotional, wonderful, wonderful conversation. So we've had a great series of events here on this main stage. Now, if you'll just bear with me for a moment, coming back to CJ. So last year on this stage for this keynote, we had former New Zealand Prime Minister, Jacinda Ardern. And CJ said, "Hey, good luck. "It's the hangover keynote." And I was like, "What the heck does that mean?" He said, "Well, basically anybody who gets themselves here "is gonna look terrible "because they've been in Vegas for more than 48 hours." So I just want to test that theory right now live. If we could just see if that holds up. (audience laughs) CJ was absolutely right. This is the hangover keynote. So thank you, CJ, for the inspiration. Look, it's not lost on any of us at ServiceNow. You know, the marketing team has to create the digital and the banners that you see with Dan's photo and Jon's photo and my photo. A friend of mine sent me a text. "Do you feel bad for your marketing team "that they, with a straight face, "have to put you on the same image? "It's like having an eggplant "next to a diamond and a pearl." Thanks for that. Real friend. We did consider other options. For example, we considered hosting this session, Idris Elba. Do you like Idris as the brand ambassador for ServiceNow? Do you like that? My wife reminded me that he is her hall pass. Too much information for the main stage perhaps. We also considered Mr. Worldwide himself, Pitbull. Anybody fired up for the show tonight? Let's practice. ♪ We at the hotel motel ♪ ♪ Holiday Inn ♪ - If you read the lyrics to that song, it's totally inappropriate. So we'll save the rest of it for later. Mr. Worldwide's gonna light things up. We're gonna have a great time. And then, finally, you may or may not recognize the third person we considered. This is Michael Lombardo. Michael is the CEO of a great, great partner, GlideFast. But he's more than that. He's a true ServiceNow champion. He is passionate about this company. You probably, if you're on social media anywhere, you recognize him as the mayor of ServiceNow. He cannot fathom the idea of missing a Knowledge event, but he had a small speed bump on his long-term recovery from cancer, and his doctor kept him back to do some chemotherapy. So I thought, given how enthusiastic he is about ServiceNow, we might just take a moment, send a little bit of love to a great ServiceNow champion. Let's see if he can feel this all the way in Boston. Give it up for the mayor, Michael Lombardo. And maybe just a perfect transition point because we've talked a lot about AI, generative AI, the future of enterprise software, redefining how businesses run. But today's about just being people. It's just about humanity, which, by the way, isn't going anywhere, despite some of the real cynical views out there. The idea of being empathetic, the idea of being creative, the idea of being passionate and fired up for something big. I can't think of two people that are better to have that conversation than the two guests we have. I could regale you with the many awards they've won. Emmy Awards, Grammy Awards, Oscars. They are writers, producers, directors, composers, actors. These two have done everything. But let me tell you what's more important than what they've done. It's who they are. You're going to see in this conversation that these two people are 100% pure. They are authentic. They bring their whole selves to everything they do. Jon has a wonderful new album, "World Music Radio." If you love Dan, you've seen "Schitt's Creek," you gotta watch "Good Grief" on Netflix. Please give it up for two icons, Jon Batiste and Dan Levy. (upbeat music) - Hi, everybody. - Wait, actually you can sit there. But oh, if you sit here, it'll be easier for them to crop their photos. Jon, can you hold this for me for a second? - Yes sir. - Can you hold this for me too? - Oh, ah, ah. I see where this is going. - We'll do it later, we'll do it later, we'll do it later. If you don't mind. Welcome to Knowledge. - Thank you, thank you for having us. - Does anybody want to comment on your CMDB? - You got that, Dan. - That's a no comment on the CMDB. Mainly because I do not know what that is. - Neither does anybody who's not here. So let me just start it off. Like everybody knows of you. I think everybody feels like they know both of you because of who you are. But like, let's just say we were in a social event. It's like, "Hey, tell me about yourself." What would you say? - Oh God, I don't know. I'd bore them to death probably. - I doubt it. - Like, what do I do for a living? I'm an actor and a writer I suppose. Where are you from? - I'm from Toronto, Canada. Any Canadians? - Are there Canadians here? See, so sweet. You can hear it in their voices how sweet they are, right? - They're very sweet. It depends on what time in the quarter, but they're sweet. Jon, tell us about yourself. - Any New Orleans, Louisiana natives, whodats? Oh, that's a lot more than I expected. Yeah, so I'm from New Orleans. Who am I? That's existential for this early in the morning. Well, I am a human being on Earth trying to make the most of these crazy gifts that I have for music. And just like everybody here, I'm just trying to learn stuff. So, you know, the CMDB, you know, tell me all about it. - Jon, that was only supposed to come up once, so let's just leave that one behind. So, all right, I'm gonna try to do justice to a conversation about your lived experiences in 40 minutes. - Great. - Yes, I feel set up for success. - Perfect. - Dan, coming up, you know, this idea of having to figure out what you're good at and talking about Jon, your gifts, like talk us through the trial and error of becoming Dan Levy. Like what was it like coming up? When did you first realize you were funny and that you had such a soul and you could make people feel? What was that experience like? - I think from a young age, I always loved the idea of making things. It was like the totality of like making something. So I would always put on like plays and things. I dragged my sister into so many kind of embarrassing productions of "Cats" in my parents' basement. But I would production design it, and I would direct it, and I loved how the different disciplines can come together to make something. And then when I was in high school, I started to produce and direct our school plays 'cause we didn't really have a drama program. So I've always been of this mentality of like, if you want something, you kind of go out there and make it and hope for the best. And then, you know, everything kind of, not fell into place. It was a very awkward journey to get here. But it was one of like curiosity and not accepting no as an answer and a lot of trial and error. I was a VJ on MTV for 10 years before, you know... Yeah, it was, my brain needed a switch up after the end of it. But, again, I was able to realize what I didn't want to do. It took me 10 years, but I realized, "Okay, that's not something "that I wanna do for the rest of my life." And I'm a firm believer in like, knowing what you don't want to do is just as important as knowing what you do. - Did you ever consider enterprise software? - Absolutely. That was at the top of my list in terms of considerations. - Things you didn't want to do. So, Jon, a lot of people out there, anybody out here love to make music? Is music a hobby for anybody? So there's some musicians. So the creative process when you're composing, that has to be a living and breathing exercise. You don't find the masterpiece on the first one, right? - Well, sometimes you do, but you don't depend on that. I think it's a mystery where creativity comes from. You know when you have it because it's an intuitive sense that more and more trial and error, more and more things that you've done, you realize what that feeling is and you recognize it. Most of the time, my creative process is different and has evolved over the years. I actually think the best way to describe it is that you make the thing until it tells you what it wants to be. And then when it tells you what it wants to be, you listen and you get out of the way. You're just the conduit, you gotta get out of the way. The ego has to go, and whatever you thought you were making, you know, that's fine and dandy. You can make that too. And that might actually work better, but that's not that intrinsically deep thing, that thing that gave you the momentum and inspiration in the first place. So that's not honest, and we don't like that. So that's my process in a nutshell. - Well, let's just do an instant validation. If these two gentlemen have touched your lives in some way, please let them know. - Thanks, everybody. - So it seems like it all went well. Let's talk about relationships, and let's start with the idea of people seeing you. And from an early age, Jon, I'll start with you. People see you in a number of different ways. They see you for who you are. They see you for your personal qualities, they see you for your talents and your skills. Like who saw you early, and how did that experience of somebody seeing you and recognizing you for the talent you are, how did that influence the path you would follow? - Well, it's my mother. She was the first one to suggest that I play the piano at 11 years old. I was 11 and, you know, in New Orleans, I was a late bloomer to start at 11. My peers, by the time I was professional, which, you know, from 11 to 14, I transitioned from beginner to professional musician. And by the time I was 14, folks that I was playing with had been playing for 10 years. They started when they were three and four years old professionally. But she had seen something about the way that things were going with music that maybe this could take him somewhere. So she saw it. And then I had a bunch of mentors over the years, Ellis Marsalis, Alvin Batiste. At the time that I was 14, they had been educating musicians in New Orleans for four decades. They had dedicated their life to this after touring with the likes of Ray Charles and touring with the likes of John Coltrane or Aretha Franklin, some of the greatest musicians in history. They thought, "Okay, in my mid-20s, "I'm just gonna go back to New Orleans "and I'm gonna teach musicians in the community "for the rest of my life." So I caught the tail end of what I call really these village elders. They had really given me all of this knowledge. So by the time I was 17, I'd moved to New York City, and I got into Julliard early, and I was in New York as a minor alone coming from this really, you know, it was a tribe, but that fostered so much in me that I was able to survive New York. Whew, that was tough. That first month in New York. Wow! If I didn't have that foundation. ♪ I might not have made it there ♪ ♪ You can make it anywhere ♪ - I'm not gonna sing the next question. - Please do. - Nope, nope. - For all of us. - No, Dan, no, Dan. So is it one person in one moment who says something to Dan Levy? Or is it a series of people saying different things strung together that create it? - I think, funnily enough, it was a combination of like one person at the right time and eventually me saying things to myself. Because, as a gay person, I spent a lot of my young life hiding away. And I think when you hide yourself away, you are not allowing yourself to be the fullest or truest expression of who you are. And that hinders your... It stands in the way of your creativity, it stands in the way of your self-confidence, it stands in the way of everything you can be, your potential. And so I had a lot to catch up on because I felt like a lot of my younger life, I was making decisions that was taking, it took myself out of the conversation instead of put myself into it. I would always get scared and remove myself from things that I knew that I was very capable of doing. But I avoided it because if you put yourself center stage and you're in the closet and someone's now having to like ask who you are and what you're doing and what you want and what you mean to like, you know, what you want to say, you're stuck. So it was the convergence of a high school teacher who read an essay that I wrote, which was essentially... I didn't read the book for the book report. But the book was written in a very particular language. Like the narrative structure was very particular. So what I did was I wrote an essay about how I didn't read the book in the narrative structure of the book. And it was a big swing, you know? And in high school, I thought this is all I could do 'cause I don't want to submit nothing. And my teacher at the time gave me a 99% on the essay, and she said, "The only reason I didn't give you 100 "is because you did not do the assignment." But she read the essay to the class and she said, "This is an example of a very strong writer." And at the time I didn't even know that I wanted to be a writer. I didn't know that that was in my brain. I didn't know it was a form of expression. But it took someone seeing something in me that I don't think I was open enough to see in myself to make me ask the question, "Could this be something for me?" And so with that in the back of my mind, and then the eventual growth and coming out of the closet and feeling confident in who I am, it was her, and it was me saying to myself, "You're ready, you can do this. "Go where you need to go. "Audition for what you need to audition. "You wanna make a television show? "Do what you can to put it together." All of these things kind of came together as soon as I became a fully formed person myself. - Amazing. So look, you're Dan Levy, you're Jon Batiste. You guys were always gonna be who you are. You are always gonna be great. But you also both have partnerships that the whole world sees. So like, everybody sitting in here is trying to do really difficult things in their own way. None of them can do it alone. Everybody has to have either a partnership with a colleague at work or you have to have a partnership with a different company that you work with. Jon, if it's Stephen Colbert, right? I mean, that's how a lot of people got introduced to you. Did you watch "The Late Show with Stephen Colbert?" You see Jon? And obviously you and your dad on "Schitt's Creek" and your sister. So what are partnerships like? How do you work through the ebbs and flows of the creative process when you're doing it with someone, Jon? - The best idea always has to win. That's it. It's hard to do, but that's really the whole thing. If you have a partnership, you have to have aligned intention. And if the intention is aligned, it starts to define the roles. It starts to define the functionality of the partnership. And then you have things you bring to that intention that will either enhance that intention, which defines further your role or maybe that's somebody else's role. And then once you figure that out, it's about being very honest, which can take some tough conversations. Sometimes you can have things flow, other times you have to have a conversation. Because most of us, especially at a certain level of expression and creativity, we know deep in our hearts when we're moving closer to the intention or not. And sometimes you just need your partner to step in and say, "Hey, we getting off true north. "Let's get back." And other times you the one that needs the nudge. So it comes down more so to chemistry and what type of chemistry allows for the best idea to always win. - 100%. Is that a hard conversation to have with your dad? - Sure. But that is exactly my answer too. I think the reason we're still speaking to each other and have a healthy relationship is because we both cared so much about what we were making. And at the end of the day, it's the best idea that wins. And it's not even a competition, but I think when it gets heated or when there's, you know... I think creative expression is like a passionate thing. People are... Creatives, I guess, are like very fiery, passionate people. And oftentimes there's ego involved. And I think you have to put the ego aside and say, "What is the best idea? "What will serve the project the best?" And inevitably that answer becomes clear. It's tricky because you don't sometimes like to say, "I had the wrong answer," or, "My idea wasn't as good." But if you care enough, you shouldn't ever let the ego stand in the way of what is the best idea for the project. - And I have to assume at a certain level for both of you, given the partnerships you've enjoyed at different phases of your career, there is something more satisfying to sharing a success when you've done something together. - I think it's the only way to survive success is to share it. - Sitting around alone. - It's awfully lonely if you're by yourself. - Yes, I can't imagine that. That's not it. Suleika, my wife, is my life partner, but, on "American Symphony," that was the first time we ventured into a public partnership, a creative public partnership. And that has been the best. I mean, I've had great experiences sharing success with bands and co-writers, co-collaborators. But when it's your life partner and you actually like working with them, that's amazing. I imagine it's like that with you and your father. It just reminded me, when it can transcend even that relationship and become something that's so deep and you can share it with that person, it's the best in the world. - I think the pride in someone else by way of success is the joy. The success is material. But to work with people and watch them succeed. I mean, I remember being in a tent when the Emmys happened and looking over at Annie Murphy, who played my sister on the television show. At the time when we found her, she was ready to quit acting. And there was something about her that I knew I needed to be around and I knew I needed to work with. And when we walked into that tent, I remember looking at her and flashing right back to our first day on set where we were both incredibly novice and green and terrified. And she looked at me and said, "I'm scared." And I said, "I'm scared too." And then to flash forward seven years later and to walk into a tent and watch her win an Emmy award gives me goosebumps now. And if you were to ever look in the background of her acceptance speech, I am levitating. I am freaking, I started screaming. I didn't know how to contain myself. I had already won like three! I didn't even give a shit. It was her! And like obviously my dad and Catherine, great. They're great, yes, it was an amazing night. But Annie, the actress that was ready to quit getting that highest honor of an industry, could bring me to tears. So that's success, I think. - It also, yeah, absolutely. But, Jon, it also by extension raises the question, right? You have these peaks and valleys in any career. Like we have moments, projects go live, everybody feels great, and then you go right back to the next one and you are buried under a mountain of an inbox. You've got work and you sometimes wonder, "Am I by myself in this?" And especially after the pandemic when everybody was locked in their own houses and now everyone's sort of still in some ways struggling to refind that routine. How do you balance the virtues of finding time for yourself, but at the same time embrace the idea of getting out there and building these coalitions and surrounding yourself with people? How do you find and work your way through both of those extremes? - You have to find something in everything to get excited about. You have to know that you started on this journey for a reason. And every step of the way, even in the mundane, you have to find a way to connect back to that first love, that initial reason. "Why did I step into this?" And my belief is, if you can't connect back to that, then you should do something else. I have these very simple barometers, but they're hard to find under duress or in the mire of life. So typically I have to look back at those things. And sometimes in my life, I've even written them down. I remember when I was a teen early on in New York and when I was putting together my band and putting the things together, I wrote these things on just a white sheet of paper, and I would tape them all over my house. My apartment had these, it looked like I was some sort of crazy mastermind that was making something in a lab. And people walked in there, it was like, "What is this?" And it was just like reminders, on the ceiling when I went to bed, things like that. And that was one of 'em. You gotta remember your first love. And that helps you to find things that are not so obvious that are motivational in the process, especially the parts of the process that are sort of, you know, just not fun. There's a lot of parts of creating that are very, very tedious. So, for me, that's one of the things that's been a master key for me. And when I'm not able to find that, it doesn't necessarily mean I need to stop doing the thing, but it means it's a new season. It's time for me to be on the beach. So I'm outta here. - I love that. Which beach would you go to, by the way? - Which beach would I go to? Well, you know, I went to Tulum before it got too kitsch. It changed. - Actually, I met a wonderful person earlier today from Hawaii. I recommend anywhere there. - I love Hawaii, anybody love Hawaii? That's good. - They already know. - So, Dan, everybody saw "Schitt's Creek," everybody watched it, many people have watched it multiple times. And that catapulted you. You were already known, that catapulted you into the stratosphere of... - I don't think I was known at all. - Well, people who watched MTV. - People who watched MTV. Yeah, a very specific sub-generation of Canadians. But yes, okay, yes, continue. Which not to minimize them, we love them. But, yeah, I had some professional notches. - Don't diminish MTV. You were a legit on MTV Canada. - I never saw you, but I assume it was very good. Does that level of success make it harder to sort of be out there and embrace people? Or do you feel like everybody always kind of wants something from you now? Like how does that change the equation of finding joy in being around other people, if at all? - A lot of my closest friends were my friends long before this happened. I feel very lucky, in a way, to have had my dad as a kind of example of how to navigate this very precarious industry with a tremendous amount of integrity and grace. And he raised us in Canada, and he went to work in America. And now that I am an actor traveling around, I know how lonely that can be to be by yourself in a hotel room in a strange city. And I now have such a even deeper appreciation for the sacrifice that he made to keep us away from it so that we had a life that was pure, in a way. I mean, he doesn't care. Like he likes golf and bagels. You know what I mean? And his kids and family. Golf, bagels, kids, family. But it just made me realize that you can have a life that is not completely tied to what you do. You can go home at the end of the night and have the same friends that you had before. In fact, I highly recommend it. It's a great way to stay sane because people in this industry are nuts. And you should try to just hold on to the people who were there before. Because, you know, some people are out there to just take you to places you don't want to go. But at the end of the day, I think you always have to check your ego. You always have to make sure that if you're not doing it yourself, you have people around you to make sure that things aren't getting out of hand. Because I feel completely secure in myself within this industry because of that. And I know that every choice I make is not predicated on like, "Will people like this? "Will it succeed?" It's about what makes you happy. It's all you have is your integrity. And once that's given away, it's really hard to get it back. So that's a very roundabout answer to your question. - Well said, well said. - So, Jon, we're at an event called Knowledge, and you cannot watch walk six inches without seeing something that says put AI to work for people. Literally not six inches. The title of this session was about the creative process that the media, the entertainment industry. Will computers take your job as a composer and a performer? Or do you see technology as additive to what you do and how you do it? - Neither. It's not gonna take my job 'cause I'm just thinking about the history of music, and this is a time where people who have the unicorn factor, people who have dedicated themself to what they love and haven't fallen for the philosophy of each industry, which I believe has become more and more homogenized, which has allowed for AI to take a lot of things. Because the formula has basically been to make music that fits into an algorithm, that fits into an idea, a predetermined idea of something. Which, you know, that's a form of AI without the efficiency. So once you get AI, it just creates scale and efficiency for that model. But if you are already a weirdo. Beethoven, you can't make Beethoven on AI. You can't make Duke Ellington or Nina Simone. That's not a shot against AI. That's just me saying for the weirdos and the unicorns, which I strive to be, and I wear that badge with pride, sitting next to one, and I love it. And that's great. Now, as a tool, I think it's amazing because it's still evolving, and we don't really know what it is yet. You know, we heard Drake use the voice of Tupac and Snoop Dogg on a AI track recently, and it didn't for me make me feel like that is going to take over for wanting to hear Snoop Dogg rap. It's just a tool that you can use to create something. Now, how it will evolve is something that is unknown, and what it will do is unknown. So the second part of your question, I don't know how that will impact the industry, but it won't take jobs away from the unicorns. It's everybody else. - Yeah, good, good answer. So I guess, Dan, the follow-up there, everybody in in the world is trying to sort through is where the line is, right? Machines are gonna be fast, humans are gonna be human. And there are certain things that, notwithstanding how fast technology changes, like the idea of a human feeling something and creating something that other people feel. Like you make people laugh and you make people feel, and, you know, when they watch your new movie, they're going to cry. I mean, I think the creative process is inherently human, isn't it? - Yeah, absolutely. Yes, the answer is yes. - Thank you, I wasn't sure where you were going with that. - Yeah. I mean, I think you can't replace... Listen, I'm still kind of trying to figure out my feelings on all of it. And I think because so much of it is unknown, it's really hard almost to feel it. I think for me it's about decency in the wake of growth. Because I think sometimes in the quest for success economically, we often overlook decency and the value of human input. And I think sometimes there are these crossroads where you're like, well, we have the easy way, we have the capability for AI to score a film and probably give 25 cues in 10 seconds when it takes an actual musician a couple days. Or we invest in the creative process and decency and let that person keep their job. And so for me it's that crossroad of where and when and how do we work together with it so that it doesn't take over, so that it doesn't replace. Because I think the tendency in certain people's quests to just economize, it's easy to overlook the humanity. That is a oddly broad statement. - No, I think that's a winner. That's a winner. - You know what I mean? - There's something intangible in the humanity as well, that the scale and efficiency of getting to the result quicker doesn't take into account. It's not a metric that you can really quantify. There's something that the human sees, and there's something in the human expression. And being in a room and connecting over a script or a score or an idea, I don't believe that it is possible for that to ever be achieved artificially. So that intrinsic value that comes from a person is also, it's about decency. But I also think in general for art to thrive, we need to rely on that. 'Cause that's what art is. Art isn't a commodity. It's not just about how much can we generate quickly that is above average. You know what I'm saying? It's about how do we transcend and pass on wisdom and pass on experience and have this really powerful, powerful unifying force that is generational continue. That's what art and creativity is. If we turn it into a commodity, it will essentially devalue it and essentially make it less of what it actually is. So those ways of thinking, "Well, it's a job and it will come in and take a job." There's a lot more at stake there than what we're talking about. So I just wanna reframe the conversation. - No, that's well said, that's well said. So, Dan, I'll go to you on this one first. So in that spirit, everybody who comes to this event in a certain sense is trying to find that balance, right? They're trying to calculate how best to take the risk of pushing something forward. And there is a risk of failing, right? There is always a risk of, when you're moving first before everybody else, there's a risk of you're doing something that turns out not to have been the right step. So at a certain point in the creative process, you both live this life, not everything you've written or acted or done has been a critically acclaimed success. And maybe even in certain cases we never even saw it 'cause you didn't like it. How do you manage through that process of saying, "Okay, maybe that wasn't necessarily "what I thought it could be or my best work, "but I'm gonna learn from it. "I'm gonna go back to the next thing"? Talk us through that in the creative process. - All you can do is try to like do your best in whatever it is that comes your way. If you have an idea, for me it's like I will do everything in my power to make sure it is as good as it can possibly be. Whether that appeals to everybody or nobody, my experience in making it is what's important to me, to be honest. We're living in this age where a lot of the creative sort of industries are being dictated by an audience. You know, "This is feedback we got. "So we need to make something "that caters to this, this, this, this, and this." You cannot make something for what you think other people want. Because at the end of the day, all we want is to be pleasantly surprised. All we want is to hear something, to listen to music, to watch something that excites us in ways that we didn't know existed. And this idea that somehow the audience, the audience just wants to be excited, and they didn't ask to suddenly be the boss. The idea of test audiences and all of these things and one person's opinion dictating how an entire, you know, creative outlook, somewhere it got flipped. And I think, you know, I have a prime example of that with my television show. Nobody in America wanted to make it. We took it up to Canada, we got it made there, we found an American network to air it. Three seasons later, it got on Netflix, and people found it and it was what it was. But we made it in a tiny bubble up in Canada. It was a show that made us laugh. We didn't have any audience expectations 'cause literally no one was watching it. But that's the safety, in a way. Because there were no expectations, we could play around, we could do weird shit. Catherine could speak in a strange accent that no one could really place geographically. All of those things would scare a conventional network. They would say, "It's too weird, it's this. "The costumes are a little too aggressive." But because we had the freedom to do what we wanted to do, success came from the weirdness of what we did. And so I've gone on a big tangent, but I do feel like I've lost what your question was. You got it, you answered it. - Okay. I completely forgot the question. - I think you pretty much answered it. Okay, great. - So, Jon. Getting back to my preferred interview partner, Jon. - I'm gonna go. - No, you can stay. - What happens if you release an album, the song you love, nobody else talks about and everybody's talking about other songs. Like how do you feel? - Oh, that was the question! No, I get it now. I'm back on it. - You handled it. - You know, that happens all the time, and it really is not something that defines success for me. You know, I think about stuff that happened in history often. Wen I think about the life of Johann Sebastian Bach or Duke Ellington. People who in the time that they were creating, the vast majority of their creative output went over the public's head. And here I am, hundreds of years later studying the scores, reimagining the fugues, trying to understand because they set a bar. There's a barometer of success, greatness. That, for me, is the chief value even beyond commercial success. So oftentimes if someone doesn't understand it at a label or if there's a partner that is commercially minded that doesn't get it, I take that as a sign of, "Oh, we are on the right track." "Y'all don't understand it? That's fire." So that's the one hand. Now, the audience, I really agree with what you were saying. I call it the algorithm. It's like there's a mode that we've gotten into as creatives. And you walk down this path and you follow the algorithm and you make the thing that the algorithm is telling you to make. And that's what's gonna make it possible for AI to take over those kind of things. Now, AI being a tool, when you're going your own path, maybe to answer your question about, you know, the creative process making stuff, maybe you don't even see the light of day with it 'cause it's not to your standard. That'll help with that process for sure, potentially, as one tool of many. Right now, I use so many different things to cycle through ideas or melodies or really see what something is before I show it to people. So I have my own filtering process, and that could be a part of that for sure. But, in general, success is defined by the creator. It's not defined by the commercial success of the art. Love that. - I also think, if I can just add, I feel like, and I use music a lot in this example, because I feel like when someone has a big commercial success or when a pop star comes out with like the big album, there is almost always a strange follow-up album. And that is for the artist. It's obviously also for the audience, but sometimes when you experience a tremendous amount of success in one area, the industry or we as a culture, tend to be like, "Okay, well, that's who that person is." And when you are creative and you have hopes for yourself that are beyond being pigeonholed into one thing, you have to have the ability to go somewhere else for yourself and hope that people follow. But you're talking long game. We need to be able to pivot. We need to be able to do things that are against what people expect because that's where you grow, that's where you learn, that's where the next project comes in, and it's something completely different that melded the first and the second. But we have to also invest in the strangeness, along with the commercial, to really lift people up and let them be who they are. So it's the investment also in the small things and the big things. They have to go together because that's when you get a long career. Someone who's been given the opportunity to do both, and then they get to kind of find their footing and figure out what comes after that. But I always love the kind of strange album that comes out after the big commercial success because I'm like, "This is what they want. "This is what they want right now." And, oftentimes, it ends up coming back into a different place. But, yeah, I don't know. - It's almost like when the second answer to the question is actually the answer to the question. - It's almost like that. - Just like that, right? So, Jon, we're a little light on time. I got one more for each of you. I'm gonna start with Dan, and I'm gonna give you your last one. So, Dan, we are like under siege, just the entire world. Everything you look at, everything you read, everything you watch is scary or negative or pessimistic. And we struggle sometimes to find reasons to be optimistic. And, you know, the conversation about technology is one of those things because it can be so much good. Watching something we love, listening to something we love, that's another way that sort of elicits an optimistic feel. I think of you as somebody who's inherently an optimist, just based on what I've watched from you and being a fan of your art. Are you an optimist? And, if so, what gives you cause to be optimistic about the future? - I mean, you kind of have to be really to keep going. It's what gets you up in the morning. And I think, you know, you can't, again, you can't make things for people. It has to kind of come from yourself. But then if it's pure of heart, if you make something that is a real expression of who you are, inevitably it will connect. And so my optimism comes from making things that make me feel good, that make me feel excited about the future. And then hearing people's responses. I think oftentimes you kind of sit down to make an album or you sit down to make a television show. And I am always asking, "Am I doing enough? "Is this even anything?" I think oftentimes entertainment can be written off as kind of frivolous in the wake of very important things. And then you read the letters from people whose lives have changed. You read the letters from kids who have come out of the closet by way of dialogue from our show, families who have completely changed in terms of their relationships to their queer children. Like it does have an impact. It's just a different kind of impact, but it's an impact nevertheless. And so that's what keeps me going is knowing that we kind of need it. When I'm low, I turn to music, I turn to entertainment as a form of inspiration. And, so, if I throw in the towel, I'm not really helping myself or others in that sense. - I'm not letting you go, but let's hear it for Dan Levy, please. Amazing. Jon, I'll give you a choice. You can either answer the question about how to be optimistic and inspired or. - Woo! - All right, all right. ("If You're Happy and You Know It") (audience claps) (upbeat piano music) ♪ If you're happy and you know it ♪ ♪ Clap your hand ♪ ♪ Yeah clap your hand ♪ ♪ Everybody you know we not talking about no CMDB ♪ ♪ All we're doing is we are living and we are creating ♪ ♪ And we are laughing and loving and being free ♪ ♪ I say oh yeah yeah ♪ ♪ I am happy and I know it I'm playing my piano ♪ ♪ I'm happy and I know it and I'm optimistic ♪ ♪ I know I am ♪ ♪ I see you on stage everybody ♪ ♪ Make me feel like I'm in the speakeasy ♪ (Jon laughs) - Yeah! (Jon screams) Yeah! Oh my goodness! Oh, y'all see, y'all see. - Have a great day three, everybody. Thank you very much. Dan, thank you, awesome job. Thank you, Jon, thank you, Jon, awesome. Thank you, everybody. (audience cheers)